Phantom Electric Ghost Podcast

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Phantom Electric Ghost: This is Phantom Electric Ghost, and we're live on the air with Annie Yang for the first time. Welcome to the Phantom Electric Ghost podcast. How are you doing tonight?

Annie Margarita Yang: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today to share some actionable tips on personal branding from my book, "The 5-Day Job Search."

Phantom Electric Ghost: Thank you again for being on the program tonight. We want to let people know, as you can see at the top, with the icon, that we are a featured podcast on the Newsley platform. To our listeners, if you use the coupon code 'ghost', you'll get a one-month free premium subscription. It's an audio-only platform. We'll be on there later tonight as a featured podcast on Newsley. So, you'll be able to listen to that there if you want to. And then, we want to let people know that we have your website up. It's not clickable yet, but annieyangfinancial.com will be fully clickable as a URL when we're published on all the major platforms. So, maybe you want to tell people what they would find if they click on that URL?

Annie Margarita Yang: Well, if you guys click on annieyangfinancial.com, you'll find more information about what's in "The 5-Day Job Search" book. Along with that, on the homepage, there is a button you can click on to buy a signed paperback copy of the book. If you go on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, it won't be a signed copy. So, for a limited time only, if you buy it directly from annieyangfinancial.com, you will get a personally signed copy, making it feel more personal and relatable. And perhaps because you get a signed copy, you'll feel more motivated to actually finish reading the book and apply the tips I offer.

Phantom Electric Ghost: I think that's awesome to have.

Annie Margarita Yang: If you guys stay until the end of this live stream, then I'll also give you a coupon code for 10% off and free shipping within the United States.

Phantom Electric Ghost: What I was saying is I think it's awesome to get signed copies. I've talked to many authors and musicians who appreciate this. When you attend a show and approach the merch table, obtaining a signed piece of work from an artist or a novelist or someone presenting their book—it just makes it feel more personal. As you said, it fosters a stronger connection, and people feel rewarded to have that. So, I think it's wonderful that you're offering that.

Annie Margarita Yang: I agree. I've been to concerts where it's a unique experience to get something signed.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yes, it's fun. I'm familiar with that world myself. But before we dive into discussing the book, perhaps you can share a bit about your background. Your perspective, the journey that brought you to writing "The 5-Day Job Search". Could you give the audience some background on that before we delve deeper?

Annie Margarita Yang: Sure. Would you like to know about how I came up with the idea for the book? Or perhaps the last 10 years of my life that led up to this book?

Phantom Electric Ghost: It's up to you. If you believe the past 10 years are crucial to the book's content, then go ahead. It depends on how you'd like to approach the explanation.

Annie Margarita Yang: Okay. Over the last 10 years, since around the time I graduated from high school, I've held various minimum-wage jobs. This includes roles like working as a cashier at a grocery store, scanning tickets at basketball and baseball games, checking bags at stadium entrances, and even working at Domino's pizza.

And I always just wondered, is this really where my career is going? Is this what I'm going to do for the rest of my life? I was always very ambitious, and I tried several different things, but I couldn't find a way to progress. I had graduated with a degree in communications, and I often pondered, "What are you going to do with this degree?" It's very vague. The career paths could be in publishing or media, and I couldn't see myself working there. I knew I always wanted to share my own message, which is why I pursued communications. At the same time, I couldn't find a way to share my gifts and talents with the world.

Then, when I moved from Texas, where I was working at Domino's Pizza, to Boston, I decided I wanted to start a new life for myself. I wanted to reinvent myself. I thought, "Maybe this is where I'm going to make my mark." At that point, I concluded that even though I didn't have an accounting degree, I would apply for accounting jobs. I felt I was adept at money management in my personal life. Despite job listings asking for an accounting degree, I didn't let that deter me. Instead, I crafted an appealing LinkedIn profile and a standout resume, highlighting that I authored "1001 Ways to Save Money." When potential employers saw my resume, they were impressed, "You wrote a book at 22?" They completely overlooked my lack of an accounting degree. When they perused my LinkedIn profile, their response was overwhelmingly positive. Consequently, during three consecutive job searches for accounting positions, I received job offers in less than a week. In fact, for my current job, I got the offer just five days after starting my application process. This book captures everything I learned along the way, offering insights on how to personally brand yourself and stand out in the job market, so you too can land or even attract opportunities without the traditional application process.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yes, one of the topics we should discuss with our audience is personal branding. You can tell I'm a staunch advocate of it, as evidenced by my logo displayed prominently and even emblazoned on my shirt. Nowadays, many individuals, whether they're life coaches, mentors, entrepreneurs, or therapists, possess distinct personal brands. Since 2016, I've conversed with numerous individuals on the podcast who essentially have carved out their own brand identity. The central question is: how do you effectively reach and resonate with your target audience? A significant aspect of that is how you present yourself. Your success with LinkedIn exemplifies effective presentation, transcending the traditional prerequisites or qualifications by emphasizing your unique personal brand. This made you an attractive candidate, and you secured the roles you sought. In today's digital age, personal branding is paramount. Perhaps you could shed some light on this, especially from the perspective of someone in a creative field?

Annie Margarita Yang: I would like to share that I'm actually a musician myself. Well, not professional, but I began learning the piano two years ago. In the future, once I've honed my skills sufficiently, I aim to play the piano professionally. Given this aspiration, I've already started contemplating how to brand myself as a musician. I've noticed that many musicians dedicate a significant amount of their time and energy perfecting their craft, striving for perfection. Yet, there are less talented musicians who have built successful careers compared to those who spend endless hours practicing in solitude. The differentiator, in my opinion, is personal branding. I'm eager to share tips on how individuals, whether they're musicians or any kind of creative artists, can forge a genuine connection with their target audience online, presenting themselves in a way that's refreshing, unique, and magnetic.

Phantom Electric Ghost: That's crucial. In my experience with podcasting, a common understanding is that most podcasts fade away after about 12 episodes. But today, with the Family Electric Ghost podcast, we've reached our 980th episode. One key insight we've garnered is the importance of showing up consistently. This consistency has enabled us to rank among the top 10 podcast hosts on our platforms. Being genuinely passionate about what you do plays a role in your success. If you approach something half-heartedly or insincerely, audiences pick up on it. The law of attraction dictates that people are drawn to authenticity. I believe some musicians falter by investing all their time in practice. Meanwhile, others courageously put themselves out there, unafraid to showcase their work. Even if it might not be as polished as that of those who practice incessantly, they face their fears head-on. This bravery is evident among individuals on platforms like TikTok, Instagram reels, and YouTube shorts. Those who consistently present themselves to their audiences tend to gain more traction.

Annie Margarita Yang: I have to agree with that. Right now, I'm actually not a student of the New England Conservatory, but every Friday morning, I attend a free class there that's open to the public. In essence, it's a college class. So, I'm essentially getting a piece of college education for free, which is wonderful. Each time I attend, I take notes because the class focuses on how to develop a career as a musician. Thinking that perhaps I could glean something valuable from it, I make it a point to attend. Every week, they invite a new guest to share insights on building a successful music career and their journey. While I'm at the front, enthusiastically jotting down notes, I notice the actual students behind me often engrossed in their phones. I think to myself, they're paying about $50,000 a year to be here, yet they're not even fully present. They might as well be at home. You're not getting the full educational experience, especially from a class that's teaching you about navigating the real-world challenges after graduation. During the last class of the previous semester, we had a discussion. When the professor asked if we had any questions, I voiced my observation: "Why do so few of you show interest in marketing? We have professionals coming in discussing the importance of showcasing music on social media, but there seems to be a general disinterest." The common response was about their work not being "perfect" yet, and the reluctance to post anything online unless it met that ideal. But in my view, many of them already play exquisitely — it's more than perfect to my ears. Their reluctance to make an appearance online, I think, is a major issue.

Phantom Electric Ghost: That is indeed an issue. Beyond just showing up, it's about being consistent. From what I've observed, many musicians who have gone through formal education paths like Berkeley or conservatories aren't always the ones who rise to pop music prominence. Many of the popular musicians you see didn't necessarily follow that traditional trajectory. One fundamental lesson you learn from popular musicians is the propensity to break rules, especially in composition. The musicians who've truly made a mark often didn't adhere strictly to the norms. They embraced what we producers call "happy accidents." During the creative process, often the unexpected or imperfect takes end up being the most compelling pieces of music. There's a tendency for the logical part of our brain to desire perfection, and that can be the pitfall for many. They're so entrenched in achieving perfection that they never truly manifest their potential. They never emerge as the next David Bowie or Lady Gaga because they're not open to trying unconventional methods. They're perhaps too mired in the classical structures and conventions. What most audiences desire is authenticity, which doesn't always equate to perfection. Hence, you see artists across genres, whether it's hip-hop, EDM, or others, who might not be technically as proficient as conservatory students but are out there working, making a living, and often earning more. They prioritize heartfelt expression over flawless execution. Your example encapsulates this idea: perhaps not having all the qualifications but still making an attempt. I relate to this sentiment in my day job. While I work in software, my background isn't in computer science. My degree is in sociology and political science. Yet, I've been in the software design industry for 25 years. Most would assume you need to know coding inside out, but in my role as a business system analyst, the primary task is akin to writing research papers — something any liberal arts major can do. Often, what holds people back is the misconception that they need specific qualifications to fit a role, but opportunities abound for those willing to venture outside traditional paradigms.

Annie Margarita Yang: I have to agree on that. And I want to touch upon this idea of perfection, because earlier you were just asking me about what's on my website. I'll be very honest, it's a one to two-page website. It's not a huge, fancy website. And actually, prior to my book launch last month, the website was about accounting. It was primarily for selling my accounting services, and we did a very quick rebrand just to promote this book. I have an employee helping me with marketing and designing the website, and I gave her this task. I said we need this website up and running for the book launch so that once it's out, people can click "buy now". I wanted to direct people to the website where they can click "buy now", which would take them to Amazon or allow them to buy my book. But I don't even need an "about" page or a "contact" page. Just a photo of the book, a photo of me, and a "buy now" option. Maybe at the bottom, it could list my full contact information since I don't have a contact form on the website. But she was like, "Oh, this is so small. We need this to be a huge thing." And I said, "No, you're complicating this." But she kept pushing. And I said, "If you want to be in charge of this project, you can do whatever you want. Just make sure the website is up." She wanted a services page, an "about" page, reviews from the book page, contact page, podcast page. I told her I loved her vision. Then she said she was going to try to get this done in a month. And I said she could try, but I was concerned that a comprehensive website like that couldn't be designed in just a month. It's a huge project, but she was thinking so big she might not have realized. Then, a week before the launch, she said she was burned out and needed more hours. And I said, "No, it's not about more hours. You're trying to make it perfect. All I wanted, and I'm telling you again, was one page." If that one page looks amazing, that's enough for me. We can add the other pages one at a time over the following months. This mentality, thinking that if you build a personal brand, it has to be perfect from the start, can be what stops people from even starting. They overcomplicate it and make it bigger than it needs to be when it should just be really simple. You can do it a little at a time.

Phantom Electric Ghost: So, what I was doing... Well, in software, we have a concept called agile. In agile, we use incremental releases. If I'm dating myself, I'm from the eighties and seventies, when we used a methodology known as waterfall. In waterfall, the entire project has to be completed. It's a project management style where you might end up with a 150-page document and numerous other documents that all need to be perfect. But that's not how the world works now. Software has evolved to adopt agile, which means we can do incremental releases. For instance, when you use your phone and get app updates, like every night, you might see updates labeled 31.1 or 34. Why is that? It's because we can release something even if it's not perfect. We release further updates for the aspects we didn't finish. We're always updating and refining. We can launch something on day one, add features on day two, and so on. We used to have to wait a whole year to release something, but that's not the case anymore. So, I believe people need to adopt an agile mindset. Like you mentioned, sometimes you just need that initial page. If some people aim to perfect every tiny detail before launching, they might never get it done, and that's the issue.

Annie Margarita Yang: The thing is, you can always look for reasons. Your brain can create an endless list of things to improve on. Unless you put a hard limit on what is "good enough," it's never going to be good enough. You're always going to find something or some reason for why it's not ready to go out yet. And I think this applies to something I talked about in my book: the importance of putting yourself out there online and producing content so that you are seen as an expert. In this day and age, if you don't put out content, people won't see you as an expert in whatever you're doing. That could be doing a podcast, a YouTube channel, blogging, writing a book, whatever it is - some form of content that people can consume before they decide to hire you. Whether it's for a job, a project, or any opportunity, people want to check out your work first before they reach out. And I applied this mindset and philosophy to my own YouTube channel. When I first started, it was really low quality. I think my main concern was the content: Is what I'm saying making sense? Is it engaging? Are people walking away with something valuable? But the production quality was very bad. I was filming in front of my bedroom with an iPhone. The microphone was a lavalier mic, a cheap $20 one I got from Amazon. I had no idea how to use it because it was too close. I came from a public speaking background, so I had learned to project my voice. I used my public speaking voice in front of the camera for the video. Of course, the mic couldn't handle it. I always hit the gain level. It resulted in very bad audio, and people... well, this was a video I never wanted anyone to see. I had hoped I would make a hundred videos where I'd slowly improve over time and then people would watch my later videos. That's when I hoped to be successful. But this first video I made? It went viral and got over a million views out of nowhere. It was like a one-hit-wonder.

Phantom Electric Ghost: That's what happens sometimes.

Annie Margarita Yang: I was getting comments like, "Why are you yelling at me? Your microphone is right there." And I just wanted to say, "It's my first time making a video. I don't know how to do that." But, you know, after the first one,

Phantom Electric Ghost: I mean, that's the point.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yes, I did it. And after the first one, what I did was I kept looking for ways to be better. So after that, I would look for two to three things with every subsequent video to improve. One time, I upgraded my microphone. Another time, I went from using an iPhone to using a camcorder. Then after buying the camcorder and using it, I learned how to adjust the settings for the next video. Then I learned how to compose the shot: like how high above my head should the top of the video frame be? You know, how do I look good in front of the camera? The next one after that, how do I improve my makeup? Because I was wearing this glossy lip gloss, and someone said, "Your lip gloss be popping." And I was so embarrassed, right? So I learned I have to use a matte lipstick on camera, but I didn't know that. The video after that, I learned how to improve the way I dress. So, you know, I think 2 percent better with each video. And then today, the quality of the video is good. The content is good. So that's how I got here today. I wasn't always like this. It was bad in the beginning.

Phantom Electric Ghost: It's kind of like when I podcasted, like back in 2016, it was on an app called Spearman and it was just an audio app using a microphone on an iPhone. Mm-hmm. And you would go and connect with another person and do a totally audio interview on the phone and it had whatever quality that was, whatever iPhone was back in 2016. That's what it was. And then over time, I started to use my musician tools, like high-quality microphones like this, better web cameras, better capabilities, like the capability we're on now, running into an audio mixer.

So this show is running through a professional mixer, like I use to make music. So as I started to realize, "Oh, I can take my mixer for making my music and use it for the podcast and then use one of my microphones I use for recording vocals and use that for the podcast." So I started incrementally adding things over time. Got better web cameras that can do 1080p and 4k and stuff like that. So you just, over time as you get more money and more capability and more understanding and learn how to use a mixer. You know, I already knew how to do that. But as you do things, you just progressively incrementally add them.

It's kind of like the whole idea of agile. If you are agile, which means you start to think on your feet. You allow the happy accidents, but I knew a lot of people who've said they're going to start a podcast for like the last five years. They said they were going to do it. They never did it because they wanted the first one to be perfect.

I, you know, I'm at 980. I didn't care about being perfect. I just started doing it and over time you get so comfortable doing it that that is what becomes your asset that you've done this many episodes. So now you're totally not fearing anything that you're willing to take on all kinds of topics, talk to all kinds of people, that becomes your asset, your capability is your experience.

And I think the people who never actualize or never present, they don't get that experience with the crowd. They don't get that experience with the audience. They don't get that experience with a job. They don't try the job that they don't know if they could do. And so that, I think perfection is the enemy of creativity and progression because you're never going to be perfect. You're going to fail. Failure is part of learning. And if you're always scared to fail, you're never going to learn anything.

Annie Margarita Yang: I have to agree. And I actually coincidentally happened to be on this Zoom call with someone four hours ago. My friend introduced us and I asked her what she did. And she told me she's a real estate agent, but she had always wanted to start a podcast. I asked her, when did you come up with the thought of wanting to start a podcast? And she told me 2017. That was six years ago, and I asked her, well, why haven't you started it? And she said, oh, I've just never had the time. And I was like, what? You've never had the time for six years to start a podcast? Anyway, we hear those kinds of excuses all the time. Those are excuses. Um, and she told me that she now wants to start this podcast. She's committed to doing it. And I said, okay, so why not start? When are you going to come out with your first episode? I would love to listen. And she told me she has to do 10 episodes first. She wants to front load and do all 10 first and then release them. And I'm thinking, why? I mean, well, maybe she, I'm not familiar with how to make a podcast successful. Maybe some successful podcaster said you should start with and seed it with 10 first so that it has a great launch or something like that. But I think that's too much pressure. It takes a lot of time and effort to do 10. You should just start, honestly.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Well, there is a mindset in podcasting, which I don't do. I'm a live podcaster, so I don't have that issue. I just do five or six episodes a week, sometimes seven. And so I just show up. Some people, because they want things to be so perfect, or they don't know if they're going to be consistent, they want to front load it with 10, 20 episodes so they have them in the can. So they don't have to worry about doing it every day. But to me, when I made a decision, when I was going to be a musician and a designer, I have a very long day just doing my day job. Then I do my other job as a producer and I work with bands and stuff. So how do I find time to do six episodes? Well, I just find the time. So to me, that's kind of an excuse I don't buy, but that's just me. But the idea that some people just can't start, so they're constantly putting things off. Procrastination is really another enemy because once you start getting into the zone or what you call the flow state, then you feel comfortable and you do it. But some people have set such a high bar to even start. So if you tell yourself you got to have 20 episodes in the can before you can even start, you'll probably never start. Yeah, if you say you only have to have one episode in the can, maybe you could start, but as soon as you say 10, then you're probably not going to start. And my point of view when I deal with people like that, I had a guy who said he was a real estate guy and he was going to do a podcast like three years ago. He still hasn't done it because he wanted five in the can. He never did it. So I'm like, okay. I'm at 980, I've got two more tomorrow. I just schedule myself, make myself available, and just do it. Sometimes, it's like that idea, just do it. You kind of do have to just do it.

Annie Margarita Yang: I think the thing is, people wait for inspiration or motivation to strike and then they say, "well, when I feel good, then I'm going to do it or I'm going to take action toward it." The thing is, in order to show up consistently, even when you don't feel like doing it, you still have to do it. Like, I have problems in my life like everyone else. I have drama, I have emergencies that happen, but my friend told me that what made me successful, from his outside perspective, is that when people have problems, because we all have them, once they get emotionally downward, all hell breaks loose. They stop taking action. They're not consistent. But the thing is, when I get emotional, when I'm angry, when I'm upset, when I explode, the rest of that day, I still do my work. So even when it's like this, I might lower my productivity a little bit, but it's consistent. It's not like a flat line all the time. Whereas other people are more erratic.

I want to mention something I came across from a very big, successful podcaster who books a lot of interviews with famous people. He wrote an article complaining about why some people stay small, and he said the reason is they don't show up. Surprisingly, it is much easier for him to book an interview with someone famous and very successful and always busy than it is for him to book an interview with some no-name person. You would think the no-name person has a lot more time, but he said the reason he has found that the famous, successful person is easier to book is because they're willing to show up consistently. Once you reach out to them, they're like, "sure, I'll get on your show." And not only that, they're highly responsive; they get back to people in 24 to 48 hours, they don't take a whole week to respond.

Phantom Electric Ghost: What I found is, I've interviewed two Grammy award-winning producers on my podcast. I didn't even know how I could get to them, but I did, and they were super responsive. What I found with the A-level people, like those who are very well-known, like movie producers, film producers, and actors, is that they show up. The reason they're successful is they're very consistent. Even though they're super busy, the Grammy-winning producers I talked to have tons of bands booked with them. They're working all the time, but they found the time to do an hour podcast with me.

And, like I said, I've had people who I've never heard of before, and they skip out on me. I have a scheduled podcast, and then they don't show up. But the Grammy award-winning person showed up 10 minutes before, was prepared, no problem. A lot of times I find that very driven people tend to be working all the time. They're working long hours, but it's not work for them. Because most of the time, it's fun. That's what people don't understand. If you're having fun, it doesn't seem like work.

So, if you really love what you do, it's not a problem. Usually, you're so involved and so excited that you're just happy to be alive. And maybe you have down points, but you seem to be so invigorated by life. That's what I find is very inviting when I talk to people like that, those who are very engaged, who show up and are present.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, well, I think those people are motivated by some spiritual aspect. Maybe they have a very strong purpose or "why," and they just feel called to do something. I think people look at me and think, "Oh, she's just so passionate," but no, actually, I honestly feel like I'm pushed. I'm not sure what your spiritual beliefs are, but I'm pushed by God to do what I'm doing, right? So all the things that I do, it doesn't make sense. How does personal finance fit in with accounting, fit in with the YouTube channel, and the book? It's like all these random things that somehow come together, but I just feel called to do it. And I feel like if I don't do it, I'm doing a disservice to people. So that's why I feel like I do have to show up. If I don't show up, I feel like people are missing out.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah. Well, I think what I find with a lot of people who are creative or just engaged and present is that many of us, like myself, feel that we can channel things as artists. I show up because I can just channel. So I can jump with a bunch of people in a band. I could just jump into a band right now with a group of guys, a bass player, a drummer, and start playing without even knowing what we were going to do, because I just feel it. The type of people I work with, they feel it too. We don't even have to tell each other what we're going to do. We have a nonverbal communication. Somebody starts playing something, and I can just jump in. I don't really have to think about it because I'm open. I'm open to what's out there in the universe. I'm a Buddhist. I'm very spiritual in terms of the law of attraction. I feel that if there's something out there, I can pick up on it and go with it. I constantly come up with ideas and don't stress about what my next thing is going to be because I trust in my own ability and the universe, and I trust that something will always be happening. But yes, I think that's hard for some people because they don't have that mindset. If you don't have that mindset and are always living in a deficit, thinking about what you don't have, then you're going to be stressed. If you're stressed, what happens to the law of attraction? If you're stressed, you're going to be prickly, and nobody's going to come to you.

Annie Margarita Yang: I think you have an abundance mindset, and it reminds me because you're just letting things come to you. Right. It reminds me of an affirmation someone said works for her: "I don't chase money or opportunity; money and opportunity find me. And what belongs to me is and always will be mine. So if it belongs to me already, it will come and find me." I think that's the kind of mindset you already have, and that's why you have a successful career.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah, I have multiple things going on. People ask, "When do you have downtime?" But downtime for me, maybe my problem, is I don't like not having something on my calendar. I like to be engaged. And some of it's hard. I'll go off and walk in the woods to destress. I'll go mountain bike or hike. Nature is a cathedral for me. There was a poet, maybe Longfellow, who said that. I destress by going out in nature, going for a hike or mountain biking. I live in New Hampshire, so I can just go out into the pines and do that. That revitalizes me. But, yeah, I think that the value proposition for all creative people is that you always have something to bring to the table. And I think it's about self-worth. If you don't believe that you're worth anything to somebody or to yourself, how are you going to have that value proposition to be successful? The first step, as all analysts and life coaches will tell you, is you have to solve the self-worth problem before you can do anything really at a high level.

Annie Margarita Yang: What you're saying about self-worth reminds me of my friend. She recently got fired from her accounting job, and she had always wanted a creative career. I said, "Maybe this is the time for you to pursue it. Maybe this is a sign. Close the door on accounting because you don't like it, and go after what your heart feels is right." Now she's trying to become a freelance photographer. But every time she takes a picture, she asks me, "Annie, how does this look?" I always tell her it looks amazing. I don't think I could ever take as nice a photo as she has. And she's at a beginner-intermediate level. I think her work is stellar, and she could get a lot of money for her work. But she's so insecure. That's why she keeps coming back to me and asking for my personal opinion of her work. She's trying to get clients. People are messaging her asking, "How much for the photos? Can I get a quote?" And she's freaking out because she doesn't believe her photos are worth any money. She's saying, "I'm willing to do free work in the beginning to get exposure or something." I think her work is already good enough to get paid. And she's wondering why no one wants to pay her after she gives a price. No one answers; they just disappear. And I think it's the self-worth problem. She doesn't believe her photos are good enough to get paid.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Right. That's the problem. If you don't feel that your work has value, then you're scared to present it as something someone wants to buy. I think a lot of artists fall into that trap where they don't actually monetize their work because they feel like, "Well, I have to give it away. I have to see how people interpret it." And a lot of people wonder, "How did that person just go out there and do it?" Because they didn't have that problem. They went out there, did it, maybe went on TikTok, and even if you thought it was inane, they got 5 million views and are now getting deals. And you might think, "Well, that's silly," but they were willing to do it and you're not. So, you have to get over that hurdle. It's hard for people to present their work because they take it personally. I always tell artists, you can't walk on eggshells. If you're going to be on stage or present in front of someone, you have to be prepared for any reaction and learn from it. Every artist, like Prince, faced criticism. He went out with the Rolling Stones early in his career and was booed by the audience. The Rolling Stones thought he was fantastic, but their audience didn't. Now, if he had let that get to him, thinking, "I went out with the Stones, got booed, so I can't be a superstar," where would he be? But he didn't do that. He released "1999" and then "Purple Rain." He became a massive star because he was willing to present, even though he faced rejection. And that's the thing – if you're going to put yourself out there, whether in art or a job interview, you have to keep believing in yourself and continue to present.

Annie Margarita Yang: I think the problem, this whole rejection or fear of negative criticism, is stopping people from putting out their work or applying for a job. To me, I used to go through it with the whole, "Oh my gosh, they rejected me," or "they said no." This must mean that I am not worthy. I am not capable. And it took me a long time to transition to be able to say, "Actually no, that's completely separate from me. They're not rejecting me, they're just rejecting what I'm offering. If I offered them cake, maybe they would say yes. It depends on what I'm offering." They're saying no to this offer. They're just not interested. Maybe they don't want pie; they want cake, right? So, um, this, it's just, I think the thing is, people are so scared to put themselves out there because of this negative criticism. Even me, publishing "The 5-Day Job Search," I was wondering, "What are people going to say? What are people going to think?" And then the reviews started coming in. Everyone that I personally know or is an acquaintance who has read the book, they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is the best thing I've ever read." And they're not saying that just because they know me. They genuinely thought the book was helpful. But then I paid — I would say I paid for 10 editorial reviews. So these are professional people who give objective book reviews. They make their living by reading books and giving you their professional opinion of your book. It's $400 each; I paid for 10. So I, I paid like $4,000. And a good chunk of them came back scathing. They hated my book. Yeah, that's what they do. Just absolutely scathing. And, and I was very much taken aback. Now, what I expected was a professional, objective review. So I'll take negative criticism, but if you're going to criticize me negatively, at least tell me what was wrong with the book. What did you not like about the book? What could have been improved with the book, right? But instead, one of them actually came back so bad, he attacked me as a person. Like, he attacked my character and said... Not, not just the book is bad, but Annie Yang is totally unqualified as a person to even give advice on this topic. And I thought, wow, you know, but I, after two to three days of that, I kind of mulled over it. Yeah. I mean. But I, in the end, I just said, you got to take it or leave it. You know, you got to like the whole package or not. You get people who don't like a part of the book. They don't like one chapter of the whole book. I mean, you kind of have to evaluate the whole thing as a whole package, right? And everyone's going to have their own opinion. So I'm just like, whatever, whatever. Once it's out there in the world for other people to see, that's all it is.

Phantom Electric Ghost: When you're, yeah, when you're a creative person, there are always going to be the haters. Some people just hate, right. Especially if you do something that's uniquely you, your take on it. And they don't see it. Some people go by credentials. For some, it doesn't matter if that person is credentialed, has been an expert in their field, and has done it before 10 times or 100 times; they're going to be like, "Oh, that's fine." But as soon as somebody unknown comes out, and they don't recognize them, sometimes you step on people's toes. They're like, "Well, I don't know you. Why do you have to say this? I don't see your credentials." I think that's a problem. Some people are very narrow-minded. They want a canon to stay in a very narrow range and aren't willing to look at other things. As soon as you push that boundary, you're going to get feedback. To me, as an artist, as a creative person, you're going to encounter those people. But what you do is you keep on developing. You learn from every lesson. In software development, we have lessons learned about things that worked and didn't work, and we progress. Sometimes we might think, "Well, that was a disaster," but from that disaster, we actually came up with something new that took over the market. It's like, "Wow." If you hadn't tried the thing that didn't work, you wouldn't have gotten to the thing that did. It's a progression. It's evolution. And I think if you think in terms like that, you have to take a holistic view of the steps along the way. As a songwriter, I might write a hundred songs, and maybe two do well. Does that mean I stop writing, or do I take each step as something that gets me to the next one? That's how you have to look at things instead of saying, "Well, that's a failure; I'm not going to do it at all because most of it's not working." The problem with most people is they look at the 98 that didn't work and then give up.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah. They should be focusing on the 2 percent that does work. For example, when I was marketing this book, I reached out to 2000 people, one by one. I personally text messaged or messaged them online, each individual person. I asked them, "I'm launching this book. You're in my network on LinkedIn. I've never met you, but you're in my network. So I'm reaching out to you." or "Hey, I haven't spoken to you since high school, but I'm launching this book. Do you want to help support my launch? If you could write me a review on Amazon, I'll give you a free signed copy." Out of 2000 people, 300 responded, "Yes. I would love to help you with your launch." But you don't see me crying about the 1,700 people that either said no or completely ghosted me. I don't focus on those people. I focus on the 300 that actually said yes. And then out of the 300, I didn't expect all of them to follow through. My expectations, I think, are realistic. I knew not all 300 would actually do it, even if I did give them a book. And out of that, the Amazon reviews are right now at 79. So, 79 out of 300 actually did end up supporting me in the book launch. But I'm focused on that.

Phantom Electric Ghost: That's pretty good though. That's a good number. That's actually a better number than you would think.

Annie Margarita Yang: But in order to get to that number,

Phantom Electric Ghost: That's true. But sometimes, when you're in marketing, I've heard some people say if they have a hundred pitches and get two people that become permanent or recurring customers, that's actually okay. If I get two people to come back out of a hundred and they're repeat customers, then that's actually not a bad number.

So sometimes, and some people would look at that as bad numbers, but this other guy was looking at it. He was a startup guy and he said, "Well, that's not a bad number. If I can take those two and keep on building, get referrals and bring that to four. Bring it up to six, then I start getting repeat customers and I don't have to keep on spending the money to get a new customer." And so some people start looking at the glass as half empty or half full and start thinking about how you can turn that into an opportunity. And I think that's where people who procrastinate, look at things very pessimistically and they're like, "Oh, it's done. It's not working." And the people who keep on showing up, who are present, for creative people, I think you have to really work at your brand. When you start, you might have a narrow focus. You start to widen it, you start to figure out your audience, you start to figure out what they want, what you want to do, how you want to show up, and it's a process. It takes a while to figure out who your core audience is, who your core customers are, and if you are actually providing something that you would buy or think anybody would want or be interested in. Once you start to tackle that and honestly look at it, I think you can start to build a brand that will connect.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, I think what people don't take into account is, it takes a while to figure out what works. What is the value proposition you're offering? Who are you trying to reach? It will take a while. And with every "no" you get, you learn a lesson like, "Okay, well, maybe this didn't work. Let me try it a little differently next time. Maybe it's my approach. Maybe it's something I said." Every aspect of running a creative business is like that. The thing is, like any creative endeavor you're trying to do, I personally believe there is a way to succeed. But the formula for success is always the same: showing up consistently, being willing to put in the work regardless of how you feel, and not being scared to put yourself out there. But the main formula as a foundation is the same, everything else has a little difference, like who you're trying to reach, what you're doing. You might need to adjust that for your own personal unique situation. You can get a coach to help you, but in the end, only you can figure it out. You can read all the books, but it's really up to you to make those decisions. So, but I think there is a working formula. You just have to go big. It's like "go big or go home". Be willing to try a thousand different things. Don't just try 20 and then say, "That's it. It didn't work. I give up."

Phantom Electric Ghost: I think it's storytelling and branding. Like a lot of times, I've tried to tell a story. I've tried to frame a concept with the podcast. The whole idea originally was that it's expansive because my brand of music is called expansive sound. So what did that mean? It meant that I can do multiple genres from jazz to punk to rock to, you know, multiple forms of EDM. So I'm not stuck in one form. So when I started the podcast, I said, well, I'm going to interview people, initially musicians, and I'm not just going to interview EDM artists. I'm going to interview all genres. So it's expansive. So I continued the idea of expansive. Then I opened it up to poets, writers, authors, film directors, actors. They're all in the creative realm. And then I made a big leap two years ago and said, I'm going to talk to entrepreneurs. I'm going to talk to CEOs. I'm going to talk to life coaches. People asked, "how can you do that when you're talking to musicians?" Well, the thread is creativity. If you're a life coach, you have an idea that's creative, just like an author, just like a writer, just like a poet, just like a musician. The single common thread is creativity. So I took the idea of expansive sound and expanded it beyond music, into podcasting, into life coaching, into just having a conversation with another human being, knowing that human beings are creative and knowing that everybody wants to be successful and be able to put out their individuality as their own brand. And that was the way I tried to spin it. It's been working. I've been able to increase my reach on multiple platforms and my numbers are coming back pretty good with my metrics. It was just a thought. I didn't do a lot of scientific analysis. I felt good about that idea. And if I feel good about it and I present it, others will feel it too. And it seems like they do. So that's the way I went about it. That may not be how everybody does it, but that's my approach.

Annie Margarita Yang: But I think one of the keys to your success is the fact that you initially did have a niche. Like you did have a target audience that you were trying to speak to, and then you made podcast episodes targeted for that group. Because if you tried to just start having all these random people that you've had over the years, but not in the order that you've had them now, then maybe you wouldn't be as successful. Because if you had entrepreneurs in the beginning, people would be asking, "What are you trying to do? I don't understand."

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah, it's just a progression. Sometimes, I think some people might, you know, find that starting off expansive is probably not the best thing. If you start with a narrow focus, get good at it, and find your footing - like getting your sea legs, as they say. You've got to dive in and immerse yourself. And that means you've got to commit. Like you said before, even if you don't feel a hundred percent, once you start an endeavor, like if you've started a pizza shop, you have to keep that pizza shop open. Even if you don't feel good, you've got to keep it open. It's the same idea when you're doing something like this. It's just like a brick and mortar shop. You have to show up for your pizza shop, or your cookie shop, or your baked goods shop. The door has to be open. That means you have to show up.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, and if you don't show up, everyone's missing out on you. I think everyone has something to share, their own unique gifts and talents. In this case, for creative professionals, whether it's acting, music, writing, or anything else, people want what you have to offer. But if you don't show up, they can't buy from you.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah. Well, I think, like you, have a really great outlook. At the beginning, you were able to get into a career where you didn't necessarily have what people thought you should have. But you were able to get in the door. I think a lot of people would be surprised because they look at the description of the job or the opportunity and then think, "I don't have A, B, or C. I have D, E, F, and G, but I don't have those other things. So I shouldn't even try." But I think we're here today to say that you shouldn't approach it that way. You should find something in your life, like how you found that you had your book. Present these aspects of yourself and show a holistic picture of who you are. It's like the elevator pitch you're making. If you were in the elevator with an executive, what would you say about your life and your capabilities? If you present that, you'd be surprised at how people might think, "Wow, that's a compelling story." Maybe they'll want to talk to you more, thinking, "I need someone like this on my team."

Annie Margarita Yang: What employers want, what anyone wants, is that if you can communicate in an interesting way. Like if you can come across as a really interesting person, they want to take a closer look. That's really what it is. Anything online, whether it's your resume, your LinkedIn profile, or any of your social media, maybe you're not selling directly, but it is just to get someone's initial interest, to get them to stay tuned and listen for more. I think that's really what it is. What I've come to realize is people don't give you opportunities right away. Sometimes it takes repeated exposure to you for them to get comfortable with you and what you're talking about, what you're offering before they want to reach out to you. So maybe their first initial contact with you is a random video they found on TikTok. Maybe then they listened to a podcast, then they saw a full-length YouTube video that you were in. And then maybe they got on your newsletter and read something you wrote in the email newsletter. Maybe it takes a whole variety of exposures to you before they actually end up going, "Ah, yes, I want to give you the opportunity."

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah. I mean, I think if you can be out there on many different platforms, if you can reach people by showing the different facets of what you're capable of, like if you have a YouTube channel, a blogger page, a website, a TikTok, a Reel. If you cover all those areas, you got a WordPress, whatever. If you hit all of them, you'd be surprised. I look at the metrics and see where I'm reaching. I get reactions from places all over the planet that I wouldn't have expected. Different areas resonate with some of the stuff I'm doing, depending on if it's my music or my podcast. But I get different reactions. And then it's like, "Oh, I can focus on this area." Maybe I'll send something special to the Netherlands or to Iceland or to Argentina because I've got fans there that like what I'm doing. So maybe they'll get something special that others don't get. And then you get them even more involved. You start to see fans. You start to build the "true fans." You build a newsletter, an email list, and a fan base. And you'd be surprised. Sometimes you don't need a lot. You could have 30,000, 5,000, or even a thousand. If they're dedicated and they're always showing up, you'd be surprised at how powerful that can be. If you get people to continually keep showing up, be interested, write about you, playlist you, promote you, and express that they like what you do, that's very powerful.

Annie Margarita Yang: I agree. But I think circling back to something we talked about earlier, because now we're talking about the different platforms you should be on. I think now, if we start saying, "Oh, you should be on TikTok, have a podcast, have a YouTube channel, have a blog, have an email newsletter, have a Twitter, and an Instagram," it's like, "Oh my gosh, I need to be on 7 to 10 different platforms," which is insane, right? It's a lot of time. If you did all of that, it'd be a full-time job in itself. Maybe you'd even need to have a team to help you. So, I think what people should do is they should focus on one first, really commit to building that out, whether it's a podcast or YouTube channel, and then branching out, expanding from there.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Yeah. There are some tools that are like automation tools that push on multiple platforms. We're living in this AI age. So there are some new tools where, if you're creative, you can push things out automatically to multiple platforms. So it's not like you have to be as engaged as you might think when you have some of these automations that automatically put things on these platforms. But that's just a different thing. Like, initially, when you're out there, you're focused on a narrow focus, but as you've been out for a while, you start taking advantage of some of the new technologies, like AI, automations, and automated workflows, things that just push out to multiple places at once. And then you're like, "Wow, I didn't have to actually do that, but it's doing it for me." So, there's a lot of opportunities where you can look into the tech that exists today. And what it is today and what it is six months from now is crazy. Exponential things happen. Our market goes by faster than I think. And again, we want to mention your annieyangfinancial.com. It will be fully clickable when we're published. And we do encourage people to click on the URL, where you find it. And again, we'll be on all the major podcast platforms that you can listen to or watch. And that will be fully clickable. We do encourage everyone who watched this episode to click on that to get further information. Maybe you can tell them again what they find if they go to that website.

Annie Margarita Yang: If you go on annieyangfinancial.com, you will find a button to be able to buy a signed paperback copy of the book. If you use the coupon code ghost10, G H O S T 1 0, you can get a 10 percent off discount on the signed paperback copy. And if you live in the United States, it comes with free domestic shipping.

Phantom Electric Ghost: Oh, awesome. That's cool. Thank you again for being on the show. We appreciate it. And we thank you for being a guest on the Phantom Electric Ghost podcast. Have a great night.

Annie Margarita Yang: Thank you, Phantom. Have a great night.