Leading With Integrity: Leadership Talk with David Hatch

Video Version

Audio Version

David Hatch: Annie, thank you for joining me today. Didn't quite realize how early you were getting up to do. This am for apologies for that with the time difference but it's great to see and have you on the show today?

Annie Margarita Yang: David, thank you for having me on your show. I'm so excited today to talk about some secrets from the five-day job, search. This new book that I just launched and share it with your audience on leading with integrity.

David Hatch: best place to start then I think is give you some time to introduce yourself. Tell the listeners a bit about your background, what you do, why you do it? And we'll get you out of bed in the morning, especially at 6 am

Annie Margarita Yang: Thanks for the Early morning Bird catches the worm. Yeah. So basically,…

David Hatch: Right.

Annie Margarita Yang: I'm someone who Didn't go straight to college after high school. I worked a whole string of minimum wage jobs and eventually I did go to college. I got a degree in communications. But then after that, because I got married to a husband who did his master's degree in the I moved to the middle of Nowhere Texas, where. After college, I worked another whole string of minimum. Wage jobs, I worked part-time jobs. All at once five of them and one of them being dominoes pizza and then we moved again for his PhD program.

Annie Margarita Yang: And we were moving to Boston, I figure. Okay, I didn't have job opportunities where I was maybe this is my time to make my mark, I'm really ambitious. Maybe I can get an accounting job here, even though I don't have an accounting degree, because I'm really good with my household. Money management. Like I would say, I'm the CFO of our household, I do all of the budgeting and stuff like that. So I figure, okay, I'm good at this. I don't have a great, but let's see if I can give this a shot. So I started applying to 50 accounting jobs a day, and then by the end of the week, I got an accounting job and that's it, that job didn't work out because the manager and I we didn't really get along. so, two months later, I started another job search.

Annie Margarita Yang: Just started applying with the resume, I already had uploaded to indeed, because of that prior Search on a Tuesday morning on my way to work started applying to jobs with the one click button. And then by the end of the day, I already had a request for an interview. When I checked my phone and then that search only took six days. It was another accounting job. I really love that company and things are great, but I wanted to buy a house, we were saving for a house. And when I did a calculation, I realized I'll have enough save for the down payment. I'm not gonna meet the debt to income requirements. So I need to up my income by at least 25,000 seeing how my co-worker never got, even a $1, an hour, raise where he's asking, basically, for two thousand dollar a year, raise, they never gave it to him. I said, Okay, I don't think they'll give that to me. So, I started applying for jobs again, but this time I said, I don't need to be all gung-ho about it.

Annie Margarita Yang: I can take my time until somebody gives me the salary that I need because I want to buy a house. So again, one year into this job, I started applying and started applying on a Monday night, apply to 50 jobs today. Next morning already got an Requesting for an interview. And then I went into that interview on Thursday and on Friday, I got the job offer. So then in this time I got a new record. It went from seven days to six days to five days. I got a five-day job offer which I took because this guy gave me the $35,000 increase that I was looking for, as well. With no accounting degree. So this is basically a short intro to who I am and what I do. I teach people how to have the same results that I've had.

David Hatch: Was always a bad sign for a job. Isn't it? When you're applying for new ones on your way to work?

David Hatch: Yeah, so that's quite an interesting and the period over that was at the time of that was happening. Was that in recent years or we looking a bit further back. where is it forward in terms of covid as…

Annie Margarita Yang: Let's so that first job search was in 2018 and…

David Hatch: Have curiosity,

Annie Margarita Yang: then two months later. Again, And then that third job search was in 2019 in November. So you would say it was like,…

00:05:00

David Hatch: Okay.

Annie Margarita Yang: I would say that was during the Wuhan outbreak in China when people forget in China,…

David Hatch: Right.

Annie Margarita Yang: but it wasn't a global thing. And then I haven't had a job search But what's happened since is I really Developed my personal brand online. So I'm a youtuber with a million views. I started posting a lot of articles online as well. And I also have expanded my network on LinkedIn too ever since that third job search. So, I've been getting pitched for job offers. Even this year, I was offered a part-time CFO position. From a client that I turned down, I get pitched by for job offers even last week I was push-up job offer, which times I had to tell, I am, sorry. But I'm gonna have to turn this down as well. Yeah.

David Hatch: Yes, that's especially interesting then the timing of it because I think there's been a lot of noise hasn't there in recent years about how the labor market is changing and how particularly the newer generations? A null staying in jobs as long as I used to certainly, which seems to be brought out by your experiences. But also they're looking for different things in their jobs and I think a lot of the commentaries type to the great resignation, and to covid itself and that whole dynamic. But it sounds like for you, at least it was predating all of those things. very interesting.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, I stayed all during the covid thing I'm still working the same job that I had before when a lot of people have switched jobs either, because they were laid off or fired. I'm during Corvette, so they were forced to switch jobs. I think a lot of that is from this kind of thing. But another thing is, I think because there was so much government stimulus, money being pumped into the economy, it's like this whole boom. There's so much money to go around that employers have to spend and especially in the tech sector. We saw they did a lot of hiring even though they didn't need to, it was like, I think I read in an article, they literally hired just so that their competition can't swoop up the talent. a lot of them did, do that kind of hiring, and we're seeing a lot of those talent being let go at the moment because there's not as much money to go around.

David Hatch: Yeah, yeah, it's not very nice dynamics. That is it, but yeah. Something to be learned, no doubt. So I guess with the direct experience, you've had of some of that job market, then, can you tell us a bit more about the five-day job search? And how? I mean, you've given us the dates, I guess. What are some of the steps that you take to help you land those three jobs?

Annie Margarita Yang: So some of the steps is it's actually a very like misnomer title. I got the comment a lot that it's misleading. Because if you open up the introduction, even on the first page of the intro, I talk about how it takes five years to become the kind of person to want a job in five days. So, even before I started landing a job in seven days, right? I was the

Annie Margarita Yang: Person, I read books every day, during my free time, one hour in the morning, one hour at night, I would watch courses on UDEMY. I would take notes, I would, be really proactive and learning new skills, so that I was always up to date in my skill set and that was something that was really attractive to employers. And I also worked on my soft skills as well, public speaking, vocal articulation something I started doing. After I started making more money, was I started working on my appearance as well because I heard someone say, before you open your mouth to speak and before people judge your personality and your character, they're gonna take a look at you. So I realize, I also have to make a lasting first impression with your physical appearance as well. So, I started working on my sense of style and fashion, my makeup all of that. and so, therefore, all of the stuff has just snowballed to become the five day job, search and now to become landing a job offer without even having to

Annie Margarita Yang: Eye for anything. So a lot of this book is basically step by step all the skills. You need to learn along the way to become this kind of person. So it goes beyond just Crafting Your Resume. To be super attractive, it goes beyond, just making your LinkedIn look nice and doing well in your interviews. It's more about developing yourself as the kind of person that's worth it that everyone wants to hire.

David Hatch: There's a parallel there, I think and what you're saying? So the five years leading up to the five days between something you hear, quite a lot in the freelancer world around justifying your rates, And there's that old kind of cliche or trueism. I don't know which it is really maybe both about, the decline who's questioning how much they're paying you as why am I paying you this much for, let's say the five days working. In this case, it's only going to tell you five days, what I have to pay so much and the answer, of course, is you're not paying for the five days. You're paying for the five years or five decades, before that of learning, the expertise, and becoming able to do it in five days and it seems very similar to me.

00:10:00

Annie Margarita Yang: I have to add on to that. It's like, They come to me, right to solve a problem. You're not paying me for my time, you're paying me for the ability to solve your problem. you can go to a whole bunch of people who can charge a lot less. Weather as a freelancer or an employee. You can pay them a lot less. But in the end, you're gonna spend Five years and discover, they can't solve my problem. Because, what chances are, especially if A really complicated problem. it's the kind of problem that requires a whole bunch of skill sets and someone who's able to see that bigger picture and put all those skillsets together to solve your problem. The problem is these days like our kind of economy industry has encouraged specialization. So people think the more I specialize.

Annie Margarita Yang: The more money I'll make, we have proactively encourage this in many fields and that is true. You can make a lot of money as an employee doing that kind of strategy. But in business, you make a lot more money. I believe being able to do multiple things, doing them. and combining all together. That's why we see Steve jobs. He's combined technology and design. he's someone who has managed to combine both and it's something that's highly valued.

David Hatch: You have, that's a really good point. Yeah, definitely. And I think the other aspect when we're looking at it from an employing perspective, rather than freelancing and, you could go out and get 10 people and pay the minimum wage to do the same thing. But ultimately, there's a motivation and leadership question there as well. if you're going out and expecting people to work ridiculous hours for minimum pay, then they're not going to be as motivated. They're not going to value you that much as an employer. They certainly not going to really trust your leadership. If that's the almost predatory way that you're choosing to employ and I think there's a lot to be said for that. Outside of the leadership, dynamic itself. But paying people, what they're worth in a lot of ways is the first step towards making them feel valued and building that culture of good leadership and teamwork and all these other things that really just end up in what is a successful company, isn't it?

Annie Margarita Yang: Really. Yeah, I think the first step is definitely paying people what they're worth but also respecting their boundaries as well. Because I came across this, She's a now, really big youtuber, I don't remember her name, but she was saying that she worked in this big law firm, right? And she had always wanted to be a lawyer and become a partner later on. she was driving for those promotions and she was making over 230,000 a year. but she never had work-life balance like her employer, never respected her personal life, boundaries, basically all time was their time and she had never asked for a day off. Never took a day off and

Annie Margarita Yang: This one moment, I think a few years into that job, her grandfather, or uncle was in the hospital, an emergency room and he was definitely going to pass away. that was the judgment that they made. And so she asked for off, Just five days. All she wanted was five days of no work and they said, Yeah, We can give that to you. So she took off, to go fly out and visit her relatives and throughout the time when she was in the hospital visiting her relative, they were calling her. when are you gonna do this? Hey, we need you to do this. Hey, don't you remember? We have this deadline. We need you to do this. And they specifically said this to her. Why do you think we pay you so much money?

Annie Margarita Yang: Why do you think your paid this much money? Because we own your time, you have to do this for us. They genuinely said that to her. So it's not like they imply. This kind of attitude. It was more like, we own your time. This is why we pay you this much. And I thought, Wow, that's really disgusting. Thank goodness. She's smart woman and she managed to use her social media following to create a side business of her own which she eventually took full time and quit that job. But many people are not able to do that but this kind of mentality that just because we pay you what you're worth and we pay you a lot of money. We also get to disrespect your life balance. Yeah, I mean you have to have both.

00:15:00

David Hatch: Yeah. No you…

Annie Margarita Yang: I mean

David Hatch: It's interesting though that I think one of the biggest takeaways from that story, for me is the fact that they obviously believed her work was worth that much money. And so by treating her that way, they've lost access to that work because she's taking it elsewhere. So at best it was a short-sighted leadership strategy. Let's call it management. I don't think it was leadership.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: Yeah, I mean that's certainly a very stark example where they've just explicitly said it in most places. It's a bit more implied, isn't there?

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, it…

David Hatch: But Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: But I've also found because I tend to be really hard working at every job regardless of what they pay me. I will always give in my best and go beyond what's been asked of me. And a lot of times employers see that and they're like, Okay let's just tack on more work on to her, they're like, okay we know we can rely on her and she's gonna do it well and someone else isn't going to do it as well as her. So, we're just gonna pile it on to her instead of giving it to her co-worker who can do a little slower and not as well, instead of, evenly dividing the work up so that everyone gets a fair amount. They kind of just pile it on to me which is the reason why in the last four years I have stayed at the same job despite all the great resignation that you're talking about. It's because my boss

Annie Margarita Yang: Respects these boundaries, I came in working 40 hours a week, but I started looking for things to automate away, And as I've automated, I cut it down to 35 a week. instead of working nine to five within a year. I asked, Can I work nine to four?

Annie Margarita Yang: and he said, Sure, you can go home one hour early. I mean, so long as you keep your work done, you meet all deadlines, I'm okay with that. And then eventually leaving at 4, but then I have found myself two o'clock, three o'clock with nothing to do. I'm looking for things to do, there's nothing to do. So I started watching training videos of the software that we were using, It's a property management software specific for this industry. And so I started watching every single video that they had in there. Help guide and every article going on every live webinar and taking notes to find out more about how we can better use the software and I presented with him, with the ideas that I've learned.

Annie Margarita Yang: In that year and I said, Hey if we take this and this we can automate a lot of this away and save time. Would you be open to that? He said, Yeah, I'd be open to that. So eventually, slowly with all the improvements that I've implemented, I was able to cut down to 20 hours a week, and now I'm at 10 to 15 all for the same salary as well. He never cut my salary in that time but I also never asked for a raise. I simply said, Let me keep cutting down the hours and just keep paying me the same. I'd be happy with.

Annie Margarita Yang: That the only thing I ask you is don't ask me to work more, whatever you hired me for is what you hired me. For if you're gonna tack on more duties pass on to me responsibilities that my co-worker couldn't do. Right, I'm gonna have to ask for pay increase as well because I honestly don't think that would be fair. So, in all these years, he's respected that and he's never piled on more work simply because I've shortened my work day.

David Hatch: Yeah, I mentioned it being a short-term view, just now, but I think that isn't it? It's if you're taking the long-term view then first of all the happier your people are the more productive. They're going to be. but also, I think it's about how you view that kind of relationship in terms of What you're getting in return for the money? I think the old fashioned way of looking at it is it's money for time. But that doesn't really work as we just seen in these stories with you've just told us but I think what it should be is money for output. So if I'm hitting the target, if I'm meeting the KPI, if I'm doing all of the things need to be done, it shouldn't matter to the management of the leadership. Whether that takes you two hours or 12 hours as long as it's done.

David Hatch: Occasionally there will be deadlines and so on, of course, but I think in a general sense it's about…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: what the employer is paying for and how they view that relationship and then how they're valuing their time and the valuing your time.

David Hatch: Just one, I've heard so many times. Now I've been there myself,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Really.

David Hatch: the whole thing of I've done a really good job. I've got it finished quickly. So the response by my boss is great. you've got a load of free time here. Some more work. And so…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: what happens is, you're being punished for being good at your job.

Annie Margarita Yang: This is why I'm so loyal to my current employer because he respects that he's a rare diamond. I would say who actually sees that valley and it's like, Okay, you have free time go ahead and take it as long as the Job's done I'm happy otherwise he knows I'm gonna walk,…

00:20:00

David Hatch: Exactly. Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: he knows I will walk. Yeah.

David Hatch: This is it. Yeah exactly. And I think he's either clearly a more switched on manager than many of them out there and…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: think being able to take that longer term view and understand that Everyone lives outside of work. It's not a beall and end That's not the primary thing in people's lives. Most of the time and being sensitive to that as a manager, as a leader being open to the fact that you sometimes need to support your people, instead of them doing what you want all the time, and all of these things. Which it sounds like he's taking all the boxes. So pleased to hear that.

Annie Margarita Yang: He has room for improvement, of course, but

David Hatch: Everyone does know there's no such thing as perfection is there. Yeah, but it's yeah,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, I agree.

David Hatch: I mean it's interesting though. I think the similarity of experiences in so many people in so many workforces around the world.

Annie Margarita Yang: I think it's hard not to fall into that trap though, where someone does their job. So you just want to give them everything. my gosh, if you can solve this, can you solve this as well, and do this? And then the work, this pile is, it's hard, it's very easy. I think to fall into this slippery slope especially if you don't know how long, a task takes I have an employee for my accounting firm that I've developed on the side right Initially, I tracked, her hours and I wanted to know how long a certain task took, but I'll admit, it's really difficult to know how long certain things take. Especially if it's a new project with brand new tasks that I have no experience with and especially if she has a learning curve. So let's say I'm asking her to design a website, that's kind of vague, how many pages on the site. What do you want?

Annie Margarita Yang: Each page, right? Do you have all the graphics ready? Do you have the copywriting ready? It's quite a big project that needs to be divided up into very small chunks. So eating an elephant, one small bite at a time, And I don't know how long it takes to design a website as a newbie as someone who's experienced. So I gave her this project and she was spending hours upon hours and hours. And finally she came back to me after a month and she said, You're gonna have to pay me for more hours because I can't get this job done. And I was like, I mean, I wish you had this conversation with me on week one because I have no idea how long it takes. I want to be reasonable, I don't want to overload her, but it's also the fact that we work remotely, I don't see her working and I don't want to feel like I want to track her and see everything on her screen as well. So, I just want to trust her, so it's really fine.

Annie Margarita Yang: Balance, you know what I mean?

David Hatch: Yes I do and there is a certain added set of challenges when you're working remotely. Like that, isn't there? But I think what's always worthwhile is what you said. It's have the conversation early and make sure the expectations are understood by both sides. I don't want to call them sides because there's not really a confrontation, is it? If you've done it the right way at least, but,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Right.

David Hatch: yeah, it's a difficult one, and I think so, thinking back to if there were multiple employees and one of them has found a better way of doing something and rather than punishing them, by giving them more work. If I were that manager, the first thing I would do is ask them how they've reduced the time and ask them to teach everyone else to do that.

Annie Margarita Yang: Right. I love that.

David Hatch: And then you look at rewarding that behavior as well, if you can. So Yeah, depending away. You sit in the organization. There's a conversation to be heard about and we incentivize this somehow can we offer a bonus structure based on innovation or

David Hatch: Time to output something like that. And again, there are risks in doing that as well because you can start to get people gaming the system when it's linked to their rewards and all of this. But I think if you manage it well and you have that conversation so everyone knows who's doing what everyone's on. The same page, everyone has the same expectations of what's going to be produced. and all of that, I think there is a path through it. That doesn't involve creating discomfort employees that leave and…

Annie Margarita Yang: Right.

David Hatch: bad math, your business to everyone in the industry.

Annie Margarita Yang: Though what you're saying it is a little difficult more for creative work. designing…

David Hatch: Mmm.

Annie Margarita Yang: because that's not something you can really measure, a great design can be a flash of inspiration. when you're in the shower away from work, or you can sit at your desk for an hour trying to brainstorm so many ideas, and none of them might work out, so for ask oriented things, I think it would work, but for something more creative. it's rather difficult to shorten that,

David Hatch: Yeah yeah agreed and measuring the output as well. I guess it's tied to it as it meant the brief. But again even that can be quite subjective. And I guess it depends on the purpose, it's for as well. So if it's a website, you could maybe link it a number of visits or number of clicks, or I don't know, conversion something like that. If it was an adverb, maybe a bit of design work for that, maybe it's linked it to number of sales resulting, I don't know. But it is difficult. I agree. I don't know the answer to that either.

00:25:00

Annie Margarita Yang: That makes sense,…

Annie Margarita Yang: though. That's given me some ideas. Thank you.

David Hatch: But okay Cool.

David Hatch: Glad I could help. I think.

David Hatch: so you mentioned your YouTube channel earlier as well over a million views, which is impressive on. I'm definitely not jealous about that honest. So, what led you to starting that up? I'm particularly on the subject, like financial advice as well, that must be almost a saturated market order for

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, it still is and

Annie Margarita Yang: I think I had always wanted to start a YouTube channel since I was So from 20 years old up till 24, 25 years old, I always wanted to do YouTube but I never had the courage because I would tell myself, I'm not pretty enough for the camera or I don't have a personality for the camera, little things like that. Or I don't have the right lighting kit to get started. I had all sorts of reasons to not get started. but one day, I saw my husband watching a finance video about this. She was like this beauty youtuber, making a video complaining, about her 100,000 and student loan debt and how it was so impossible for her to pay off and how she wanted to spend the next year, documenting her trying to pay it off and trying to find out the right financial advice. And then she's in this video she said and someone told me that I should go consolidate my student loans and this is gonna help me pay it off faster. And I was like, No, no, that's not gonna work and then she's like, so,

Annie Margarita Yang: Into this financial advisor. And he told me to consolidate my student loans. So I guess that's the right thing to do. And I was so angry because you consolidate alone doesn't make it. faster to pay off it really, it is more about you managing your money and saving your money living below, your means. And then, paying off your debt as fast as possible. Regardless of whether you consolidate or not, consolidate would help you maybe lower your interest rate, but in the end you still need to pay your loan back, So I was watching her and then I watched her later videos as she was documenting, and she even shared this Excel sheet of how much money she was making. and what she was spending her money on, she was making get this, she was speaking between 10 to 12 grand a month. As a youtuber. Yeah, I swear she was making

David Hatch: Wow.

Annie Margarita Yang: Over a hundred thousand dollars a year. While complaining about owing, a hundred thousand dollars in student loan that and not only that she shared her expenses. She was literally spending $1,000 a month on airfare. And around $900 a month on clothing and makeup and hair. And I get that she's a beauty youtuber but if she just cut it back a little bit, she can easily pay off her student loans, I think, in one to two years it's very much doable and I felt like she was doing. People just total injustice here. disservice

Annie Margarita Yang: With what she was saying. And people were listening to her, they valued what she had to say, simply because she was an influencer and I was reading the comments and they were like, you're so hot. You're so pretty man, I love that. not only are you hot and you're pretty like you're giving this financial advice and I was beyond angry that people were following her just because she was pretty. And I thought, people need real advice. That doesn't matter if someone's pretty or not, and I'm gonna make those videos. So, that's honestly what got me started? Yeah.

David Hatch: Fair enough. I think my conclusion there is I'm in the wrong career.

David Hatch: Yeah, that does seem a bit. I don't have, hypocritical is the right word, is it? But certainly tone deaf, because there's probably people watching that who are in serious, financial difficulty, in taking an advice,

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: Wasn't no,…

David Hatch: Icon of money.

Annie Margarita Yang: she wasn't. And she was spending it on and travel clothes and makeup. That's why she didn't have money. That's why she lived paycheck to paycheck. She literally spends it all on, disposable expenses, things that you like don't even need at all. And then, what made me even more? Angry was I started watching more YouTube videos. So the thing is, I got good at money from reading books and from reading blog articles, that was what was popular before YouTube was something popular for finance, So that's how I got into learning money management. So I was not into watching finance videos. And so, finally, after that one, I said watching more of them and I was watching some of them catered to woman. And a lot of these how to stop being broke, how to stop living paycheck to paycheck, how to save your money. And they were saying things like, stop drinking coffee at Starbucks or Stop buying flowers to decorate. Your home quit buying scented candles and I wanted to scream because here I have been working.

00:30:00

Annie Margarita Yang: Minimum wage jobs my whole life. I literally just stopped working at Domino's Pizza and got my first accounting job. that was on the cusp at that transition when I was watching these and they're telling me not to buy scented candles girl, I've never bought a scented candle in my life. I've never bought flowers in my entire life, either. Never bought a coffee at Starbucks. your advice is Definitely catered for middle class. People who just can't stop charging their credit card right but it's not going to help people like me who are earning minimum wage already have a tight budget and don't want to use credit cards at all and it's looking for every way to save every single penny. It didn't help people like me who are looking to cut back on necessities. I had no trouble with not spending money on things that we didn't need. What I really wanted to do was cut our necessities down to the bare bones, that's what I needed help with, and they weren't speaking to that.

David Hatch: Yeah it's easy to be cynical, isn't it? And a lot of these youtubers you think that they probably don't actually know anything about what they're saying. They've just realized they realize people wouldn't want are interested in this.

Annie Margarita Yang: They don't.

David Hatch: They'll click on that or there's something people pay for because they need help with that problem. And I do feel like There is a certain thing,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: isn't there? The whole marketing gurus and you've got to solve the problem that people are willing to pay for and But also it needs to be a meaningful problem and you need to know something about it as well. don't just go and…

Annie Margarita Yang: A lot of these people, their shows,…

Annie Margarita Yang: I'll be very honest, feels one.

David Hatch: Yeah, this is it.

David Hatch: That's what I'm saying.

Annie Margarita Yang: One I I also shouldn't say his name that wouldn't be good.

David Hatch: Yeah. I'll let you know,…

Annie Margarita Yang: He would come after me, he has over a hundred thousand subscribers now,…

David Hatch: it's fine.

Annie Margarita Yang: but when he came to me, he had only 5,000 my plan, my channel had blown up at the time. He came to me, he had only 5,000, we got on a call and he said, Hey, I like the fact that you made a video on how to save money on minimum wage. and then he asked me to collaborate, I watch his videos. I was like, I don't think we have the same financial philosophy. I'm not interested, because the philosophy matters as well. I don't want to just collaborate with another finance youtuber, unless we want to promote similar philosophies toward money and so He told me on the call. I got a degree in accounting. But then after college, I got an accounting job for two months, I realized I hated accounting. So I never worked in accounting after that and then he bought some ATMs and stuff instead of putting them around town and was making money off of the ATMs. But

Annie Margarita Yang: He made all the videos that he made from there on after, right? He said, Hey guys, my name is Soul and I'm an accountant and I want to give you guys some financial advice. This is how you can save money on minimum wage. Keep this in mind, he also never earned minimum wage because right after college Where do you get the money to start your ATM business and stuff like that? He never worked minimum wage in his life but he saw that I had made a video on how to save money on minimum wage and that title was doing well. So he made a video on how to save money on minimum wage. hopping a lot of the advice I gave in my video, but just in his own style, But he basically took all the things that I talked about in my video and said that with his own style. Yeah.

David Hatch: And they said something that small business owners and freelancers will identify with hugely is not just going where the money is because it's easy and you need the money because, of course, we always do in those particular. Professions shall we say but following actually what your values are, what your purpose is, what you're there to do, are not compromising those, just because you need to pay the bill that month. Which is a lovely sentiment, not always practical, of course.

Annie Margarita Yang: It will work though. I've been that kind of person. I don't compromise for money. I've experienced what it's like to earn money and have it go against my personal values. it's like a cognitive dissonance, and you feel the need to justify what you're doing, simply because you need to pay the bills and I didn't like that feeling and I decided, what? Even if I have to work at Starbucks, I'd rather do that rather than compromise on my values. So to date, I don't take a sponsorship. Honestly, I think I have 85 videos up. I've only taken one sponsorship and that company went under and then there was one company that they didn't offer me a sponsorship. I just liked their product so much. I asked for an affiliate link honestly, but it's because I don't want to compromise on my values at all, for the sake of money ever.

00:35:00

Annie Margarita Yang: And I think it's something that's doable. If you live within your means, if you are able to look at your income budget and save money, you won't have to stoop to that. Yeah, I think that's,…

David Hatch: Indeed, but more and only you'll be able to sleep at night.

Annie Margarita Yang: that's important as well.

David Hatch: I think, if you don't sleep, you're not going to achieve any other things Are you most of the time? So, Interesting, so we've mentioned the great resignation already. there's also quiet quitting, there's been a minimum Monday, as well as a new one I'm hearing at the moment where it's new to me at…

Annie Margarita Yang: That's new to me as well.

Annie Margarita Yang: I've never heard of that one yet.

David Hatch: Okay. Yeah,…

David Hatch: I don't know why Monday I mean and how it's different to quite pretty. I'll have to look it up afterwards but anyway I'm sure there's loads of our buzzwords around this whole thing as well and they keep hitting the headlines and you keep seeing the back and forth between kind of employee groups, and leaders there and then big business leaders and railing against it Do you think all of these things are the sign of a wider change in the nature of employment in the labor market? Or do you think it's more of a temporary reaction to difficult economic times covid or whichever

Annie Margarita Yang: I genuinely Don't think it's either, I don't think there is a black and white dichotomy. I think there's a third answer. My personal opinion is the media is just trying to get your eyeballs all these social media influences, when your eyeballs mainstream media once your eyeballs, they're always trying to look for this new hot trend to talk about. They don't want to talk about the same thing, it gets outdated, it gets boring, they want something fresh. I mean, I feel like this is just the same thing with the different face on it. Like we were saying what, 10 years ago, Millennials, so entitled. spoiled lazy. want to do the bare minimum but gets paid well, kind of thing. But just now, we've got great resignation right and all those now bare minimum Mondays. It's just a different way of saying the same thing.

Annie Margarita Yang: I honestly think that's what it is, because now I'm trying to promote this book. I'm trying to get media attention, I'm doing everything. It takes to market and sell this book. So I'm learning about R and press releases, I'm learning about how to do that, and I'm also on the subscription list for help a reporter out. So I'm reading about these articles at these journalists want to write And it's like they already had an agenda. They're just looking for people to contribute their stories to it. They're not like saying, Okay, let me look for a story that exists. No, I already have this headline that I want to write an article about. So can I find people to contribute this story too? Right, as well as the press releases. How do you get a journalist attention?

Annie Margarita Yang: You need something that's really like attention grabbing Clickbaity something more sensational. Otherwise it's like bland and boring and it just gets lost in a whole sea of other people's press releases. So, It is how it is. Today we want to grab people's attention. It is the advertisements that make money and so if we can grab your attention we can get more advertisements better paying ads as well. So I think that's what it is but I don't see any change at all. Really. I mean people who have always wanted to put into bare, minimum will always be that way people who always want to get ahead will always be that way as well. That's my personal philosophy on this reading, how it is and trying to interact with right now. That's what I've discovered.

David Hatch: Okay, not the answer. I was expecting.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: Yeah, I mean, you're a risk of getting me on a run now about the media and Cameras collapsed.

David Hatch: That's one for the outtakes video, and

David Hatch: It's a new camera and…

Annie Margarita Yang: No problem.

David Hatch: it's not very reliable.

Annie Margarita Yang: This can be edited out,…

David Hatch: If No,…

00:40:00

Annie Margarita Yang: it's fine.

David Hatch: we're going the Annie's real probably. It's the third time has happened though, so I think people get bored of it. And is this still alive? And what was I saying? Yeah, so you're in danger getting me on a rant about the media and the way it reports things and this whole balance to journalism thing in inverted commas. and now, I think there is a certain cynicism around. It isn't there and you possibly right in this context as well. Because I think there's a quite unpleasant, undercurrent, all of these stories in the way that they're written about this subject and how it's kind of all employees are lazy. They just want to work from home and working from home isn't really working. And if I was to go really down the kind of conspiracy theory rabbit hole, then you start thinking about who's paying for these stories,…

Annie Margarita Yang: And they're trying to get people back in the office…

David Hatch: don't you?

David Hatch: But exactly,…

Annie Margarita Yang: because the commercial real estate sitting empty.

David Hatch: There we go. And then when you get a national leaders as well, you have friends who own all those buildings, saying the same thing in the press too. It's yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: they've got a financial stick in it. Yeah.

David Hatch: It's quite interesting. Yeah. So it's easy to be a pessimist. It's easy to be cynical about all of that sort of thing, but At a company level and individual organization and a small business. I think the vast majority of leaders actually, they starting to recognize that it's all noise. And what really matters is the people because they're the ones who are going to deliver the results that they want for their business. And so,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: if those people aren't willing to work for your organization because you take that point of view,

David Hatch: You've got to change your point of view, haven't you?

Annie Margarita Yang: I personally think whatever they say in the news is always noise. They just want to get your attention. maybe there is a trend but honestly, How does that affect you if you run a business? If you're a leader or your manager, if you do the right things, if you're reasonable, If you're the kind of person that's rational and you listen to your employees, and it's a relationship. If you're able to build that if you listen to them, to what they want, and you try to give them what they want, but also have expectations in return, right? If you have a vision,

Annie Margarita Yang: If you have values for your organization that people can line up with, if you have something that they can reach for and get excited, about what does it matter? What the news says, you have a great organization, you have something that could be top of the top that everyone wants to work for you can attract the top talent for all you care. Right? The way Steve Jobs, attracted people to his organization that We're really passionate about what they were doing. It wasn't for the pay. He paid Well. But I mean you can pay anyone well that doesn't mean they're gonna put in their best work, they're not going to be necessarily excited for what they're doing. So what he said is when he hired someone and he interviewed them what he was looking for, wasn't their answer, he was looking for a spark, go up in their eye the moment they have this certain spark He knows. They're gonna do well here because they're gonna be really passionate about the things that he wants to do for the company.

Annie Margarita Yang: So yeah, you could listen to the media, all you want and then go into this whole downward spiral this is what all employees are like and then have this kind of expectation and then they will prove you, Because that's what you believe or you could be more proactive in learning how to become a better leader that everybody wants to work for.

David Hatch: Yes, absolutely. I of course believe that. Otherwise I wouldn't be here right now. So couldn't agree more, and it's a nice segue into the next series of questions, which we're going to talk about leadership more specifically. So, First of those then from your career. So far, all the organizations you worked in worked for was the biggest leadership lesson that you've learned.

Annie Margarita Yang: Biggest one that I've learned is you can't change people. because I'm the kind of person, I love personal development. If somebody gives me feedback, I will genuinely consider it. I won't take it as a personal attack, I'd be like male. Maybe this person has some merit in what they say, Maybe I do need some improvement in this area. What can I do about it, If there is something I can do about it, Can I take a course? Can I read a book on this? Maybe I can and close this thing make it so that it does is not as effective negatively, And so, because that's my own personal life philosophy for myself. I always assume other people want to do the same. so, when other people come to me with a problem, I want to give advice And when they don't follow my advice, I get upset.

Annie Margarita Yang: I get really upset and I take it personally like that. They not think my advice was good. Why are they not listening to my advice? If they just listen to my advice and they follow it, they won't have this problem. Their problem will be solved. I swear to it because I have had this exact problem I have solved this problem. So I know the solution and I've come to learn, I cannot just have to let people suffer their own consequences of the problems, Even though I know their advice, I can offer them. The advice, they don't follow the advice. I have to watch them fail. my friend back in. May she got fired from her accounting position?

00:45:00

Annie Margarita Yang: She came to me crying. I said You're really good at what you do, you were fired because you didn't notify management that you move from New York to Florida. So she basically violated some sort of company policy that they had in place, it wasn't because she was bad at her job, I said You can easily land a new job because he wants to grow this photography business that you have on the side, you can also just get a part-time job and grow that on the side so long, as your bills are paid, then you don't become desperate.

Annie Margarita Yang: But three months later, she still hasn't followed my advice. She's been living off our savings and her savings were dwindling and to me, she was crying. She's like, I'm gonna be homeless. I won't pay the bills on freaking out blah, What am I gonna do? I don't have any family here. I just moved to Florida and I said You should have followed my advice three months ago, but then she attacked me back. She said, You're not supportive. You hate me, you're a friend. You don't care about me. I thought you would be a lot more emotionally supportive about my problem and I said, No, I genuinely care about you, I want to watch you succeed but she didn't follow my advice. So finally, she did get a job. She followed the advice in my book, the five-day job search. She got a 10 day job search. She got multiple job offers and only 10 days, right? And then afterwards, she was telling, Wow, I feel great. I never knew how important money was

Annie Margarita Yang: And when she was in a better mood, she came to me and she was do we have a problem? Why are you upset Annie? and I was like, I mean, I kind of just have to let you suffer the consequences of your own decisions, you are your own adult, your responsible for yourself, so I can give you the best advice I can but if you choose not to follow it, I kind of have to just watch you struggle. and I have to be okay with that, I think that's the hardest lesson to learn as a leader. Not in that. This is a personal experience that I've shared but this I think applies in business as well. knowing people cannot change, you cannot make other people's decisions for them, you can guide them, you can influence them, but in the end that decision is up to them. So, you can try to persuade an employee, not to leave your best worker, persuade them, not to leave, you can put together the best package, right? But in the end that decision lies with them,

Annie Margarita Yang: If they need to leave, You cannot change other people and you just have to accept that.

David Hatch: yes, I do tend to agree with you, I think for me where that is most Relevant is in letting people make mistakes which is one of the things. Most managers struggle with the most. I think that temptation isn't there to because you may very well as the manager know how to do the job better or…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: at least in this particular example, might So the temptation is, or you're going to make a mistake, just move on away. I'll do it for you. There you go. See it's done great. Everyone's happy. Except no, they're not because you've trotten all over their toes. You basically told me you don't trust them to do their job. and you also, Stopped them from realizing a learning opportunity by making the mistake. I think that that's very much what you're talking about. as for when people have decided to leave,

David Hatch: Either this might be a controversial statement, but once they've reached that point of decided that they're going to leave the company. I would never try to persuade them, otherwise.

David Hatch: If you succeed? In another six months. Now, we just as unhappy again,…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah. Yeah.

David Hatch: if not worse. But the second one is if it's already reached that point, use the leader of failed to do your job properly. You know that it shouldn't have got to that point, you should have realized the problems way before they got. So the seriousness of them handing their notices in

Annie Margarita Yang: But some people leave for reasons, beyond your control, like you can do,…

David Hatch: that too. Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: you can do you can put in your absolute best to make sure people stay long-term, like, I want people to stay 10 years, 20 years, and that is my goal. Everyone who comes in through my door, I tell them that. So, if you have a problem, please bring it up with me right away because I will treat you like family. If I want loyalty from you, you'll have loyalty from me, right? And I have led with this kind of philosophy, but the thing is some people have personal life problems That have nothing to do with me like the one who just left back in June, from my company, right? She left because her husband said he didn't want her to work.

00:50:00

Annie Margarita Yang: That had nothing to do with me. She loved it, she loved to work, but she married into a Muslim family and in their personal values. They don't believe woman should be working, woman should be at home, taking care of the house. And so when she was leaving she was crying Annie. I don't want to leave, I'm sorry, so there was nothing I could have done, So sometimes it life pulls people. All part in different ways. I would say, we just have to accept that as well.

David Hatch: Yeah, you're right. I think that's kind of the third one or slash the part of the reason for the first one which is don't trump sweating to stay because the thing as you say either it's too late as I said, or it's not for a work-related reason. And a lot of the time, that's none of your business. Anyway so you probably shouldn't be kind of probing that property.

Annie Margarita Yang: She came to meet with that problem, I didn't.

David Hatch: …

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, yeah.

David Hatch: of course, No, no, I wasn't suggesting that she had but yeah, it is an interesting one. I think that again speaks to the whole thing we were talking about right at the beginning around, respecting people's whole lives. And understanding that not everything. They did choose or decide to do at work is related to work or driven by work? It's because of what's going on in the other more important parts of their life. Let's face it.

Annie Margarita Yang: That's right.

David Hatch: And So my next question, bit of a tangent from that one. So what do you think? New leaders should focus on the most to ensure that they really Make a good transition from being that individual contributor to an effective leader and manager

Annie Margarita Yang: I think what they can do is they can think about look back and reflect right journal about this. What did they like about other leaders? And managers that they've worked with and what did they not put those in two different columns, try to emulate the ones that you liked and then work on the ones that you didn't like, for example, some of the things that I didn't like was like, I had a manager that didn't tell me he didn't like, certain,

Annie Margarita Yang: Things. For example, that's the reason. Why at that one job? I only stayed for two months because we had this clash. He was telling me things like Annie, I don't like it when you print in color, But he told me after I printed out the sheet of paper in color or like he told me after the fact that I don't want you to print on a brand new sheet of paper, if it's not something important that needs to be delivered out to a client. If it's not something important, then use an already used piece of paper just print on the back of it.

Annie Margarita Yang: But he told me that after I had already printed on a brand new piece of paper, So, I mean that's on him. He didn't have a training manual that I could have read. I mean, if this is something he wants from all employees, especially he's been in business like what 20 30 years, I mean you would have think that there's a whole system set in place, he has certain expectations. Maybe this stuff can be written down so that people who are new can read in the training manual, So I didn't like that experience. It'd be very honest, because of what I went through. But what I did was in my transition, I looked back as I didn't like that, but I can solve that. I can make sure that People working under me will never have to go through that because I will have a training manual. Everyone can read what my expectations are before they start job,

Annie Margarita Yang: and if there's something that wasn't written in there and a new situation came up that wasn't already written down. I will make sure to update the training manual so that everyone after that will also know, So I think it's important for a leader, to reflect back on their own prior work experiences. what didn't? And work based on that to begin with. I think that would be the best thing.

David Hatch: Yeah, 100%. And I think the other call of that is communication, which for me is I don't know if it's the first best and last aspect of good leadership, but it's certainly in the top five is one of the most important things of effective leadership is communicating And a big aspect of that is the situation you've described there is Making sure everyone's on the same page. And we talked about managing expectations earlier, isn't it? here's what I expect as the leader as the manager. What do you expect from me? make it a conversation, not I don't know, a dictat or an instruction, or a directive from one eye, or Stone tablet on the mountain and so on. But yeah,…

00:55:00

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: it's definitely an important aspect of leadership 100%.

David Hatch: So I think we're probably know the worst manager you've ever worked for who's been the best leader? it works for always

Annie Margarita Yang: I got to just say it's my current boss because he's really been understanding of everything. I mean I had to sit down with him for lunch back in August when my books just launched and I told him I'm gonna be getting on 500 podcasts. I have a greater calling than working here. and, I feel like not for myself, but I have to get the five-day job, search out market, it and promoted, because we're going to have even more massive layoffs to come. We're gonna have more bank runs, as we've seen, and I think a lot of people are financially struggling and my book will help them. So, I have this great calling and I feel like I must answer it, so that means I need to open that door.

Annie Margarita Yang: and I asked him to be understanding flexible and lenient and he understands. I'm getting on two to four podcast interviews a day, and he hasn't complained one bit. And he said, I can even hire a part-time worker and to help pick up any slack. If it's too much work for you, I'd be open to doing that as well, and to make sure that there is a smooth transition. When you're ready to go,

Annie Margarita Yang: So I have to say, I mean that's really mature of him to I don't think many managers would react that way. Many managers would be like what you're trying to leave. I have to start making sure you're not in the loop of company stuff, Or cutting access to company secrets and things like that. A lot of them would react in this way because they're scared. Someone's going to leave and take everything with them, but he's been a lot more, I guess, understanding emotionally. Yeah, so I have to say he's the best one so far.

David Hatch: Yeah there you go listeners. Great leaders. Do exist in real workplaces.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: okay, so is any doubt because sometimes there is unfortunately and it is good here though and I think he's really showing that he's taking that long term view and I understanding that In the short term, as well. There's not really much to be gained by saying no or making it more difficult for you to do that, especially if he's happy with the work that you do and he's happy with the results and he feels that he's Able to pay you a fair wage to do it as well.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: I think There's a lot of upside to being understanding and…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: way too much downside to not, I think.

Annie Margarita Yang: But I also think it's partially because honestly, if he weren't my boss, we'd be friends. I've tried my best not to cross into that friends barrier, but I have expressed to him in the past, because we have the same mindset, same philosophies, a lot of things in business, we can agree on. So, I feel like after I do transition out, I've expressed to him, I would like to be friends. I would like to stay in touch Not simply because I want someone in my network because I genuinely want to be friends with him and I said, and later on Maybe a year or two, from now, I want to start a business with you. I would like to be a business partner with you, not your employee but an equal, right? I have expressed that to him, and he's open to that. So I think there's that

Annie Margarita Yang: As It's not just like, okay, after you leave goodbye, Yeah.

David Hatch: Yeah, but I guess part of that is what I'm saying, isn't it? It's the long term views recognizing there's more to be gained

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah, that's right.

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah. If I could go back in time, I think I would go back to 18. Because I was in that time of my life, I didn't go straight to college. I watched all my friends, go off to Ivy League or other really prestigious universities and I felt like, I was left behind. I had this fear of missing out

01:00:00

Annie Margarita Yang: if I had to go back, I wouldn't do anything different. That was the path for me. I was not supposed to go straight to college, Because I needed to figure out myself first and not take on student loan debt to go with it. So my advice would just be like, everything's gonna be fine. Annie, quit freaking out. Because I'm always so paranoid and worried for my future and wondering. What is my future going to be like yada? and I step into that fear. I wish I wasn't so fearful. I wished I could just say

Annie Margarita Yang: You're doing great, you're doing everything, you should be doing, you're learning, you're reading books, you're improving yourself. You're not staying at home playing video games and watching YouTube videos and being like a deadbeat that keeps living with Mom and Dad and expecting them to pay for everything. No, you're going to work. Even though it's a minimum wage job. But you're working, you're making your own money. You're saving that money as well, and you're learning, you're willing to So, keep it up and 10 years from now. Your life will be drastically different if you just keep up. This trajectory

David Hatch: I think that's something most people would identify where there's no that feeling of fear, especially around that age, when you're finishing school, you either are or aren't going to college and universities and these things. And there's such a lot of changes happening at a lot of pace.

Annie Margarita Yang: It's a huge transition,…

Annie Margarita Yang: huge transition and…

David Hatch: Yeah, and

Annie Margarita Yang: you don't like people are always growing up. You're always told The real world is different. adult life is not like this adult life has a lot more responsibilities and they make it sound like it's so scary. to learn how to cook or do laundry or pick out the trash. I generally feel like it was such a scary thing to hear going up Wow, the stuff must be so difficult. But no, I mean it's the stuff that can be learned,…

David Hatch: Yeah. Yeah,…

Annie Margarita Yang: right? Yeah. So scared.

David Hatch: I mean, I guess it's quite an uncertain time though, isn't it?

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah.

David Hatch: In terms of your future or what to expect and you're right. I think a lot of is because it's built up in our minds and so I think, The very valuable advice that you give yourself. I mean, who wouldn't want to go back and give their 18 year old self. That piece of advice. I certainly would. Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: Exactly.

David Hatch: Also times been flying so it must have been having fun. One question left. My favorite question. Everyone gets this question. Looking forward to hearing your answer as well is called leadership heroes. the question is if you had to pick one person and they could be anyone, you like a live or dead past or present real or fictional who in your opinion would perfectly embody leadership, who would that person be and why

Annie Margarita Yang: This person isn't famous, his name is Bob Bose. He's actually in the UK, I think he's in London but when I met him he was living in New York City. He was the president of the Bay Ridge Toastmasters Club for me to learn public speaking. And I work under him for, two years. In that club, he helped me develop my public speaking skills. When I definitely thought I didn't have any talent at all, but he was so encouraging. He kept saying No, Annie like this is when I was 20 so it's right around that time when I wasn't. So sure of myself. What does it mean to be an adult? so he was kind of more like a father figure, always pushing me to be better.

Annie Margarita Yang: I wish I could work with him in other things, Because I only got to see him once a week for an hour. So while I was like the vice president of the club. that doesn't necessarily mean I worked really hands-on with this guy. He was definitely someone that other people had called a leader and I have to agree because he loves personal development and he loves developing people as well because of the way he developed me. Personally if I could I would love to work with him. The problem is, he's retired. So I'll never get to experience that and he's also in the UK now. So I haven't seen him ever since

David Hatch: Yeah.

David Hatch: That's selfish of him, isn't it really? Yeah. Yeah, that's the. Thank you for sharing a Good example. And I think we're advertised not much else I can say about you your choice there but it is always really I guess I prefer hearing ones where people have actually met their heroes there because it's always a little bit more interesting, a little bit more personal and…

Annie Margarita Yang: Yeah. Because I had a,…

David Hatch: it's quite easy, just pick someone from history,…

Annie Margarita Yang: I had a little taste,…

David Hatch: isn't it?

Annie Margarita Yang: that's the thing. I had a little taste of what he was like versus I can't say,…

01:05:00

David Hatch: Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: I wish I worked under Martin Luther King, I wish I worked under Obama. I don't know who these people are aside from what you hear in a books or in the media, and who they are in real life, could be something totally different. But I had a taste of what it was like to work with papo's. Even if it was just for an hour a week and I would have liked the full meal, Yeah.

David Hatch: Of course and actually quite telling the impact, he's been able to have on you in short side to a short period of interaction as well. So I think that speaks volumes to Yeah.

Annie Margarita Yang: That's definitely.

David Hatch: I think we're out of time and last thing I'll say, is, if there any listeners have enjoyed our conversation, I'm sure they all have. But if they would like to learn more about you and what you do and get a hold of the five page up search. Would you like to point towards the website where they can do? So,

Annie Margarita Yang: Absolutely They can go on any yang financial.com and also I have a special offer for the listeners for a limited time only. They can get a 10% off discount on assigned paperback copy of the five-day job search. So all I need to do is add the book to the shopping cart on Annie Yang, financial.com and use the coupon code leading l e, a d, I n g, the listeners can also follow me on YouTube. That's mainly where I am on social media. They can search Annie Margarita Yang, and I should show up, and I also just made a tiktok two weeks ago, so follow me on tiktok username handle is Annie Yang Financial.

David Hatch: I also have recently joined tiktok, so have to share experiences there and I'll put all of those links in the episode description as well so everyone can find them easily and won't have to remember or type anything too much so lovely. it's been great. Talking to you today, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you again for your time. And for being here.

Annie Margarita Yang: Thank you so much David.